…dying by drowning. Now, he may have lost a few, especially when he was starting out, but he was very experienced by the time Jesus went there and was baptised by him. And the first thing we read about of Jesus's vision of his connection with God was…

…Buddha didn't become enlightened through doing a PhD. He became enlightened through meditating for years under Bodhi trees and elsewhere. Jesus didn't become aware of his divine mission through going to a rabbinical seminary, although he was well versed in…

…the Witch of Endor. But I can't think of anything that is against telepathy. In fact, it's rather taken for granted. You know, when Jesus says which i forgot which disciple he sees under the fig tree um can remember which one he sees under the fig tree…

…he's rather dismissive of something that could be in fact a telepathic uh impression um So there's nothing in the life of Jesus that suggests he was against psychic phenomena. He was highly intuitive. And when St. Paul and the road to Damascus has his…

…and I wrote this book was to recover a sense of animated nature, nature, living nature, which is what the world in which Jesus grew up, the world of the Old Testament, nature's alive, not dead and mechanical. In the Middle Ages, the theology of the…

…on this direct experience of a greater consciousness than our own. The Buddha didn't become enlightened by doing a PhD. Jesus didn't recognize his deep connection with God. as a father by studying in a rabbinical seminary. These were direct experiences…

…but trouble. And so the idea of this end of history was projected into the future, the coming of the Messiah. For Christians, Jesus was the Messiah, but then history didn't come to an end. So it was then projected to the second coming of Jesus, when…

…For Christians, Jesus was the Messiah, but then history didn't come to an end. So it was then projected to the second coming of Jesus, when ordinary history would come to an end. Well, this basic idea of an end to ordinary history became the basis of a…

…cohesion, identity, and connection with the past. The Christian Holy Communion is itself a Passover meal, the last meal shared between Jesus and his disciples, and it's reenacted in every Holy Communion, and those who take part are connected with the first…

…are about remembering key events in the history of the group. like the Passover in Egypt for Jewish people, like Jesus' Last Supper with his disciples, like the first Thanksgiving dinner of the American settlers in New England, and reenacting that…

…know I I mean I you know I've written about this in books as well I felt this was the significance of the person of Jesus in history which I wrote about in one book, and then Dante's Divine Comedy as well, which I've written about, that I feel is…

…this is a new experiment. And one reason why we're doing this now is that Mark's book, A Secret History of Christianity, Jesus the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness, has recently been published. And also, my own book, Ways to Go Beyond and…

…might say, to even have the perception that there might be a gathered divinity behind it all. And that the significance of Jesus, particularly around the Mediterranean, was that he was a person who people felt had lived both fully human, a fully human…

…were going on at the time, but it captured the shift of consciousness particularly. And, you know, either in the life of Jesus himself, I'm quite prepared to believe that, but certainly in the reflections that then came upon this figure, people were able…

…Musk or Donald Trump or Boris Johnson. So even if one takes these, say the enlightenment of the Buddha or the realization by Jesus of his affinity with and deep relationship with the ground of all being, God the Father. Even if one takes those as goals…

…that somehow, if consciousness is what it's about, it's a level of consciousness that hasn't really been explored so far. Because Jesus, for example, had very little to say about other planets and galaxies. He didn't know about them. And the Buddha was…

…1,500 years, and in the Eastern Orthodox Church, where The Way of the Pilgrim is a famous book which describes the Jesus prayer, which is a common meditative mantric practice in Eastern Orthodoxy. People are not doing it in these traditions primarily, so…

…and bitter herbs and the telling of the story. The Christian Holy Communion itself, a Passover dinner, re-enacts the Last Supper of Jesus with his disciples. And those who take part in it enter into communion with those who are sharing that meal with…

…them under the water, bringing them up again, and their lives were transformed. It was the first great spiritual awakening for Jesus himself, according to the New Testament. That was the moment when he first became aware of his intimate connection with God.…

…Not just imagining a change, but changed through an experience. Now, of course, he may have lost a few. But by the time Jesus came along, he was very experienced and really knew what he was doing. But that was before liability litigation. So I think…

…not about dogma, it's about experience. Experience is much less controversial than dogma and all religions are primarily rooted in experience. Jesus didn't get to where he was by doing a PhD, nor did the Buddha. These are about, they're rooted in…

…had to go through, I had to go to hell. But in that hellish experience, the second they ask for help, an angel or Jesus or a light comes in and rescues them. What is your take on the whole near-death experience phenomenon, which has now been documented…

…deeply embedded in our religious traditions, particularly the Christian tradition. Because the central feature of that is John the Baptist. He baptized Jesus and Jesus' first experience of himself as a son of God, the son of God, was at his baptism. He had…

…in our religious traditions, particularly the Christian tradition. Because the central feature of that is John the Baptist. He baptized Jesus and Jesus' first experience of himself as a son of God, the son of God, was at his baptism. He had a voice from…

…enlightened, then coming back and saying they'd died, they'd seen the light, and they'd been born again. And that experience which Jesus had, I think the early Christians were having, and People who've had near-death experiences often lose the fear of death…

…in her lap. But another is less well known, certainly in Protestant Europe, which is known as Maria Lactans. And this is Mary breastfeeding Jesus. And I got very struck by this image. Well, we all were, but I decided to do a bit of research. And in a…

…out to me when I lived in his ashram in India, you get this split in Christology. The first three gospels have a man, Jesus, who becomes God, and the fourth gospel, St. John's gospel, god who becomes man in the beginning was the word and the word was…

…consciousness, bliss, or, um, and the, the, um, father, son, and Holy Spirit with, with the son as the Logos, not just Jesus of Nazareth, obviously. Yes. And the creed makes it very clear, the Nicene Creed, through him all things were made. It's the…

…thought death was the end. So it's not totally true to say it's never been widely understood. But even at the time of Jesus, one group of the Pharisees believed in life after death, the Sadducees didn't. So there were disputes which are reported in the…

…Pharisees believed in life after death, the Sadducees didn't. So there were disputes which are reported in the New Testament of Jesus discussing it with them. In the Buddha's time, some people were nihilists in that sense. People did think in the Buddha's…

…greater consciousness, which doesn't come through. I mean, the Buddha didn't get enlightened through doing a PhD in consciousness studies. Jesus didn't realize his direct connection with God through going to a rabbinical seminary. It happened at the moment of…

…I think one of the most radical implications of this is religious. And I'm thinking here of the resurrection of Jesus. What happens after the crucifixion, the resurrection, which is such a central part of Christianity, is that disciples and people…

…crucifixion, the resurrection, which is such a central part of Christianity, is that disciples and people who were very close to Jesus, Mary Magdalene first, and then the disciples, and then other people, mostly disciples, see him. He appears to them. He…

…vanishes again and is clearly not a regular physical body. I mean, the descriptions in the New Testament of the appearances of Jesus suggest that this was not a regular physical body. It wasn't even somebody pretending to be Jesus walking into the room…

…New Testament of the appearances of Jesus suggest that this was not a regular physical body. It wasn't even somebody pretending to be Jesus walking into the room and walking out. The door was locked and he can appear and disappear. So now these look very…

…and disappear. So now these look very much like after death contacts. And so the normal approach to these resurrection appearances of Jesus, which go on for 40 days within a fairly small radius of Jerusalem, the normal approach is this is a complete…

…greater than ourselves. Now I think that's the starting point for all religions. I think all religions start from a mystical experience. Jesus, at the moment of his baptism by total immersion in the River Jordan by St. John the Baptist, came up from the…

…called out to him. Muhammad knew the Quran was divine because the words came to him from outside. The disciples knew that Jesus was somehow alive after his death because they saw him and then they heard him speak. These experiences matter to people…

…their imaginations and focuses on their inner imagery. So people have told me that they've prayed to God while they've been sitting in Jesus' lap. As they pray, they want to be standing in the throne room, so they can feel the heat of God's power on…

…that I am, his first revelation to Moses. Then the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, Logos, is not just Jesus of Nazareth. It's the principle through which all things were made, as it says in the creed. It's the word of God through…

…the most interesting theological thinkers at the moment. Whereas we've had decades of sort of word analysis and biblical criticism and did Jesus really say that? And so we had lots and lots of that kind of theology. This is much, much more interesting and…

…different culminating phases in the history of Western theology and philosophy, beginning with Plato's idea of participation, And then Jesus is, in Whitehead's terms, exemplification of this idea. And then the elaboration of the Trinity by the early Christian…

…fathers. Whitehead thinks that these three phases of theological development of this important, not only idea, but as exemplified by Jesus and as elaborated theologically, by the early Christian theologians that we need to return to that matrix of ideas to…

…experience. And that's what he tried to communicate through monks and through practices and so on, through spiritual practices. And then Jesus, in his awareness of his affinity with God, this again was not through doing a PhD in Old Testament studies or…

…of God is collective. Kingdoms don't just have one person in them, the king. They're collective. And a lot of Jesus' message is not just about individuals, but also about our relationships. Well, this invisible presence, this presence of spirit, contains…

…it makes sense to me, but we do have a slight problem with some religious imagery, like in the Creed where it says, Jesus Christ sitteth at the right hand of God the Father. That does imply that people sit down and that they're located, even Jesus…

…Jesus Christ sitteth at the right hand of God the Father. That does imply that people sit down and that they're located, even Jesus has his place, his actual chair or throne, which I always find a very... I know it's metaphorical and I know they used…

…down on what I say, but all I can offer is my own experience. Oh, I think it makes total sense. And actually, it wasn't Jesus who said he'd sit at the right hand of God the Father. It was his followers who said that. And his own teachings don't seem…

…about God as though we know what we're talking about. Nobody knows what God is, do they? I'm not too sure we know what Jesus is, we have our versions, but how far does that go? Because when you're dealing with the infinite sooner or later you're going…

…me of the previous spirit, all these great spiritual leaders that have come into the world, be it Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, peace be upon them all. They never came saying, here's the rational arguments in terms of, here's the philosophy,…

…have a much greater view of God. God becomes a universal God that is God of all peoples. And then, you know, Jesus himself was brought up in the Jewish tradition and thought of himself as teaching primarily Jewish people. But again, he was proclaimed…

…The New Testament didn't exist for the first two or three generations of Christians. It was compiled later out of remembrances of Jesus that were written down, traditions. And then someone had to decide which books go into the Bible and which don't. And…

…go into the Bible and which don't. And that was an evolutionary process. And the story within the New Testament is that when Jesus died, he said, I'll send the Holy Spirit to guide you. And the Holy Spirit comes at the Festival of Pentecost, which is…

…you could justify slavery much better than if you interpret it in a liberal way. So, well, actually, the spirit of Jesus was to liberate people from bondage. They say, okay, where's the text? Jesus doesn't say anything about liberating slaves. So…

…liberal way. So, well, actually, the spirit of Jesus was to liberate people from bondage. They say, okay, where's the text? Jesus doesn't say anything about liberating slaves. So fundamentalism gave a kind of impetus to this and it was very, very…

…And, you know, for the Jewish people, then goats and sheep were the main ones that took on a religious significance. You know, Jesus, Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world, the Agnes Day. This is a sacrificial lamb, which is a sort…

…spy on itself. Like Jung described in his analysis of the book of Job, that was exactly the idea there. And the incarnation of Jesus afterwards being God's way to sort of get a handle on that and trying to see it for himself, so to say. There's rich…

…And Jewish people had this idea of Sheol, you know, like a bit like the Greek Hades. But the Christian message is that Jesus, through his resurrection, created a path for life after death. And the life after death is not life in this world, but life…

…think one of the key messages of Christianity is not to fear death, precisely because of the death and then the resurrection of Jesus and his continued life after death in a way that was close to and indeed an integral part of God. With you personally,…

…the ultimate death doula, as it were, of the transition. And then most Christians believe that after death they'll be helped by Jesus Christ, and for Roman Catholics and many Anglicans, the saints and the angels. The saints are people who've died who can…

…is precisely not to worry about death, that it's all going to be fine. If you live good life now and believe in Jesus Christ or believe in the Buddha or practice your spiritual life of loving your neighbor, loving yourself, loving your enemy even, If…

…then you create that good life, Christian life. I mean, I would say from the Hindu perspective, Indian perspective, I would say Jesus Christ was an avatar. He was an avatar. And his teachings are very, very similar to Jain and Buddhist and Hindu teachings…

…own has happened in many traditions. In the Jewish tradition, it clearly happened to Moses and the prophets, clearly happened to Jesus, clearly happened to the Hindu sages. And we're all human, so when you have this experience and you start talking about…

…just something like sprinkling water over a baby in a font. And it was a truly transformative experience. And the first moment when Jesus, at least when we're told about Jesus' first sense of his direct connection to God, who he saw as a father. That…

…baby in a font. And it was a truly transformative experience. And the first moment when Jesus, at least when we're told about Jesus' first sense of his direct connection to God, who he saw as a father. That experience happened during his baptism when he…

…And what happened, I think, in the history of Christianity is that this enormously transformative baptismal experience, which John gave to Jesus and to many, many other people, an experience of death and being born again faded away as the church then…

…when we've talked about Christianity, because we're both Christians, both churchgoers and get a lot from that tradition. But is the person of Jesus? Who do we think Jesus is or was? and i wonder whether an interesting way into this would be to ask what…

…because we're both Christians, both churchgoers and get a lot from that tradition. But is the person of Jesus? Who do we think Jesus is or was? and i wonder whether an interesting way into this would be to ask what jesus signifies in the history the…

…sort of start of a ten, I think that I'm increasingly going off The idea, which I think is mainstream in Western churches, that Jesus saves us, to use the common phrase, that somehow Jesus was a sort of sacrifice that appeases God in some way and takes…

…going off The idea, which I think is mainstream in Western churches, that Jesus saves us, to use the common phrase, that somehow Jesus was a sort of sacrifice that appeases God in some way and takes away our sins, therefore. I was reading the other day…

…that particularly starts to be developed in the second millennium and then particularly at the Reformation. So the earliest representations of Jesus aren't for example the figure of someone on a cross They're more like a good shepherd in a field or…

…But everything that you read in the New Testament about this experience of John the Baptist, including the baptism of Jesus, which was a completely transformative effect in his life, fits perfectly if these were near-death experiences. That's what they said…

…Christian Holy Communion itself, a Passover meal, is a reenactment of the primary event that created the Christian community, namely Jesus' Last Supper with his disciples. And that's reenacted in every Mass or Eucharist. The American Thanksgiving dinner is an…

…the other holy books of India. The Buddha became enlightened not by doing a PhD, but by sitting and meditating under trees. Jesus realized his union with God through a mystical experience that happened at the moment of his baptism. And I think that the…

…earliest period, the third or fourth century, in meditative practices in monasteries and convents. repetitive mantra-like prayers like the Jesus Prayer have been common in the Eastern Orthodox tradition for centuries. So this is part of the Christian tradition.…

…Buddha didn't come to Buddhism by studying sacred texts in libraries. He came to it by meditating under a peepal tree. Jesus didn't get there by just studying the Hebrew scriptures. Muhammad didn't channel the Qur'an by study in libraries. Experience came…

…it was done. A Christian Holy Communion is itself a Passover dinner. It's the same kind of thing. It's a reenactment of Jesus' Last Supper with his disciples. And people who take part in it become part of the Christian community by having this ritual…

…of grace, light, love, peace. And they often meet beings of light, sometimes deceased ancestors, sometimes beings of light, sometimes Jesus. It depends on their religious background, but there are many common features here. Then of course, because it's a…

…I probably had a team of helpers on the bank to help with the resuscitation and then the next one could come along. Jesus himself underwent this rite of passage and initiation with John the Baptist and it transformed his life too. It was the beginning…

…enlightened by meditating, sitting under a peepal tree. The Hindu sages meditated in caves in the Himalayas and had these experiences. Jesus was not didn't reach his sense of his deep profound connection with God the Father through studying in a seminary.…

…one that I really like, I say for the last is down south we have Pentecostal Baptists. They work themselves up in a Jesus state of ecstasy. And they get all excited about how they're testifying that God protects them. And many of these people in this…

…the central feature of Christianity is Christ. I mean, that's why it's named Christianity. And one of the central points is that Jesus Christ in his human existence combined both being a human and a divine consciousness. And A lot of Christian theology is…

…Gospels of course, in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, the view of Christ is sometimes discussed as ascending Christology. Jesus Christ is born a human being. And through his personal development, his baptism, his revelation at the moment of his…

…has a different view, descending Christology. Divine consciousness descends into a human being and takes an incarnation in human form. And so Jesus is right from before he becomes a teacher and all that kind of thing. God has descended into human form and…

…Why can't it be both? So I don't think there's a single answer to this, but I think that the whole point is that Jesus takes on this divine consciousness as a human being. And the Christian doctrine of the death and resurrection of Jesus is that he…

…is that Jesus takes on this divine consciousness as a human being. And the Christian doctrine of the death and resurrection of Jesus is that he passes through death. His body disappears. Some people say, well, isn't this a bit like the rainbow body? He…

…argument that your culture and your life fully determine the experience. So, for example, in the West, we are prone to see Jesus and the burning bush or whatever, whereas in the Americas, you're more prone to see jaguars and snakes and whatever, right? So…

…the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, is part of the divine nature, then the Logos is expressed through incarnation in Jesus in a particular form. But more cosmically, it's the cosmic Christ or the entire universe is a kind of incarnation of the…

…water. And people were flocking from all over the Holy Land to the Jordan to be baptized by John. One of them was Jesus. And we have a subjective report of Jesus' experience where he felt for the first time his direct connection with God, his direct…

…over the Holy Land to the Jordan to be baptized by John. One of them was Jesus. And we have a subjective report of Jesus' experience where he felt for the first time his direct connection with God, his direct bondage, his bonds to God, the fact he was…

…generations back to the first Passover. The Christian Holy Communion is very similar. It was itself originally a Passover dinner with Jesus and his disciples and Christians all over the world re-enact ritually that Last Supper of Jesus with his disciples in…

…originally a Passover dinner with Jesus and his disciples and Christians all over the world re-enact ritually that Last Supper of Jesus with his disciples in the Holy Communion with bread and wine. By taking part in this communion they become part of…

…doing a PhD at SOAS. He became enlightened through spending years meditating, learning from yogis and sitting under trees and meditating. Jesus didn't have his sense of being part of the divine nature through studying at a rabbinical seminary. It came to…

…I sing. These are all spiritual practices that give a sense of connection. And in that sense, they're true. Now, whether or not Jesus was actually born on December the 25th in A.D. naught doesn't bother me much. I'm not very interested in those kinds of…