…an old cliche of space and time in favor of a new sort of tribal archetype. That's... Might be a good place to pause, Tony, to rally our resources here. Okay? One way of tackling the theme of cliché archetype would be just with such familiar titles as…

…anything of yours or read anything of yours, how involving, exciting, how it just opens room for thought. You're one of my few fans, Tony. Marshall, I cannot tell you how the more I know of you and your work... the more my respect for you just grows…

…And received media almost has a religious quality. It internalizes certain social values or can be used for that. Remember, electric media, Tony, the one we're using now and all the others, you have no body. You are a voice without a body. When you're…

…Bill, I constantly, constantly, constantly have to, one, thank you for all you've given me. Well, I've been doing a lot of new things, Tony. We're out of way, out of touch. Are you ever in the city at all? In Toronto? In New York. Oh, no, I come…

…do, please, please come. I have so many things. I'm constantly building demonstration tapes. Maybe I can send some to you. Okay. Look, Tony, I have two daughters in New York who live there. One is a filmmaker. I know. I met... That's Terry. Yeah, I met…

…I could come and see you, or you could come and see some of the things that I have. Well, I look forward to that, Tony. It shouldn't be too long. And again, you see, reading you is very hard for me because I find one page or a paragraph is…

…read, well, I stop. I don't feel a need to go on, not for a while. But that's a good way to read, I think, Tony. I just find reading, for me, is for the purpose of getting you thinking again. And once you have that material, new material to digest,…

…of getting you thinking again. And once you have that material, new material to digest, to explore, to expand... As far as I know, Tony, I'm the only person who starts with the effects, not with the inputs. I study all media from the point of view of…

…Wonderful. And I'll send you a bunch of them. Put me on the subscribers list. Fine. I'd be delighted to. Okay. All right, Tony. It's good to hear you. Thank you very much, Marshall, for calling. And a pleasure speaking with you. Same now. Bye. So,…

…for calling. And a pleasure speaking with you. Same now. Bye. So, Carol, did you notice that Marshall said he hadn't heard from Tony in a while? Yeah. Now, this is a recording in 77, they say. We've already had many recordings in 77. So here's another…

…a recording in 77, they say. We've already had many recordings in 77. So here's another one. But Marshall's acting as if Tony hasn't been keeping in touch. And that's why Marshall doesn't tell him anything. You've got to stay in touch with McLuhan. You've…

…And that's why Marshall doesn't tell him anything. You've got to stay in touch with McLuhan. You've got to be in a dialogue. So Tony, he says, I could tell you about what happened to private identity. And he names a bunch of other times. He says, well,…

…he names a bunch of other times. He says, well, I'll tell you about that sometime. He doesn't tell him. And Tony just wants to brag about what he's doing. And Tony misses the opportunity. He doesn't learn anything new. Interesting. Interesting observation,…

…tell you about that sometime. He doesn't tell him. And Tony just wants to brag about what he's doing. And Tony misses the opportunity. He doesn't learn anything new. Interesting. Interesting observation, Bob. Yeah, and McLuhan knows that Tony, he's building…

…doing. And Tony misses the opportunity. He doesn't learn anything new. Interesting. Interesting observation, Bob. Yeah, and McLuhan knows that Tony, he's building up a bit of a reputation for himself in the States. And McLuhan promotes Tony, but... That level…

…Yeah, and McLuhan knows that Tony, he's building up a bit of a reputation for himself in the States. And McLuhan promotes Tony, but... That level that Tony's working on, McLuhan's not interested in. Okay, so when were they doing the recordings in Tony's…

…you have, this is 77. We've got all these phone conversations are in 77. McLuhan says the same thing to him in every recording. Tony, we have no bodies. We've made big discoveries. We have no bodies. And Tony acts like it's all new to him. Yeah, yeah.…

…says the same thing to him in every recording. Tony, we have no bodies. We've made big discoveries. We have no bodies. And Tony acts like it's all new to him. Yeah, yeah. Center margins and stuff. And Tony's arguing with him. He doesn't agree with…

…Marshall's perception. He says it's reception. Right. And then McLuhan's coming to New York, but he doesn't go and drop in on Tony. No. And Stephanie's not working. When she made that documentary on Marshall in 1984... She said she did it to find out…

…then in 77, coked up, running around. And that's what Marcia sort of just referred. Well, she hasn't got a job. And then Tony says she came over and was very depressed, blah, blah, blah. But she's too busy with Margaret Trudeau running around the Studio…

So this is 1977. Tony and Marshall get on the phone. Hi, Marshall. Hello, Tony. Good to hear you. By the way, an important breakthrough has taken place on that dyslexia business. Yes. I've been working on dyslexia with an optometrist for 15 years. We…

So this is 1977. Tony and Marshall get on the phone. Hi, Marshall. Hello, Tony. Good to hear you. By the way, an important breakthrough has taken place on that dyslexia business. Yes. I've been working on dyslexia with an optometrist for 15 years. We…

…right, fine. Well, thanks so much for your, just for being you. We'll be in touch. Okay, Marshall. Right on time. Bye. Bye. Hello, Tony. Hi, Marshall. How are you? Good to hear you. I feel like you've been in my room for the last few days because I've…

…So that's the violence in the internet. Did you get my piece on the inside-outside? No. I'll send it to you. But it concerns, Tony, the fact that North Americans are the only people in the world who go outside to be alone. and inside to be social.…

…it drives them up the wall. That is, the Arabs and whoever, they can't touch it. Well, you know, even in the Jewish world, Tony, they have to go very easy on booze because the Jew is a tribal man. You know, I've been getting into something, and tell…

…9-5-6-4-3-1. Okay. This should be it. Back to you, and I'd like to, if you have a moment now. Yes, I do. Hi, Marshall. Hello, Tony. I just happened to be in town. Okay, we came in from Paris last night on our way home. Oh, wonderful. Stopping over to…

…address is... 455 West 56th Street. 455 West 56th. Yeah. That's the Watergate over Coca-Cola commercial. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Great. Let's... Tony... You must have picked up many sidelights on it. Yes. What it inspired me to do was to ask myself, what…

…in John Culkin's setup. I told him that I'd be glad to help him anytime. Sounds interesting. Yeah. Well, three o'clock then, Tony. Fine. Looking forward with great delight. Right on. Okay. Bye. The more literary kind of approach. Yeah. See, I'd like to...…

…that effect. No. Yesterday's newspaper is dead. Yeah, it's garbage wrapping. I'd make some, I think these would be very valuable comments, Tony, to feel free to... Just go wherever it goes. Yeah, do an inventory of them. You don't have to fill it out…

…the guy in front of them. Yeah. That's a fascinating thing. That's really interesting. Have fun with this. Follow it where it goes, Tony. Simply indicate how other people could follow it up, you see. Yeah. Try to exhaust the whole subject and open it up,…

…years ago, is that the auditory environment today travels at the speed of electricity. There's an item that you must pick up sometime, Tony, on tape. That is the sound of an old steel-rimmed wagon wheel going down a New York cobble street. Today, in the…

…to develop the habits of archaeologists. Do you mean if I stay here in this... You have already become a notable archaeologist, Tony. By recording the sounds of this city, you're probably the only person who will enable the posterity to know what the hell…

…out of the educational system. You can't get a job without experience, which means... Look, we cut you a damn good disc there, Tony. Boy, I'm telling you. Oh, why? That's a good one. It's interesting. Picasso says his objective is to look and to show.…

…the real pressure cooker situation, is the kids who are the natural citizens of this electronic world are also caught in what Tony calls the pencil box world. So you've got the slowest environment and the fastest people together. That is called a gap, a…

…going to be in California, you're going to be in one of the places where it has a chance to happen faster or slower than... Tony and I were having a little chat here a few minutes ago about the future of New York. And, dear Grandchild, you will be…

…and so forth. The moment you got into electricity, I found you became interested in other factors, emotional factors. Well, sure. Tony, that is the theme we were talking about under cliché archetype. The old world of cliché was the world where everything…

…be studied. People living in cities today need to develop the habits of archaeologists. You have already become a notable archaeologist, Tony. By recording the sounds of this city, you're probably the only person who will enable the posterity to know what…

This is McLuhan and John Koch and talking Tony Schwartz's studio. We sort of face each other and things like that. Well, one of the most obvious things, are we on the air? Yes. One of the most obvious things, John, about the present time is that such…

…because he began to move towards the abstract quality of painting and away from a purely visual image. Well, look at, well... Tony, do you want to cut that sound before we do any talking? The constable world, you say, Harley, is really the discovery…

…my back? Yeah. I don't have Marvell here. I have it. Yeah? Well, I mean, I know... All we have to use these slides for, Tony, is just to look at them. Yes. You know, and refresh our memory about them. They have the Herbert here. I struck the board.…

…Absolutely. We have a thing. You know about 2001? Yeah, my last. I went. You hated it. I was bored stiff. Nevertheless, Tony has a tape there describing the genesis of it. That might be much more interesting. It's much, much more interesting than the…

…anything unique is never on a collision course. He never competes with anybody. He never bangs into anybody. He's got something unique, like Tony here. You know what I got? I got a camera here. I'm going to take a picture of you sitting over there in…

…You know what I got? I got a camera here. I'm going to take a picture of you sitting over there in your little lair, Tony. I got a flash bulb. It's a Polaroid, and we shall observe the results of our battery. At once. No delays. All right. Assault…

…Sure. Well, now, what about lights over there? Any needed? And don't you think that we ought to gather a little group around Tony over there while we're taking pictures? I mean, can't I get in there? Sure. And Susie and everybody? Yeah, let's all move…

…anyway. I don't want to get told. I'll get it. I'll get it. All right, start climbing it. Are you going to use your camera, Tony? Yes. All right, now I just dismantle the box. Did you say your daughter was in Spain, a guy in Spain? Uh-huh. This is…

…and put a number on it and put it up in the attic. Remember this at that point they solved the problem by the way, Tony. Are we recording? Yes. Okay, let's go, you know, let's go later later the other night on Channel 13 or one of the current shows…

…I don't think it's a... It's a... If you think about the total sensorium and you think about the possibility of reorchestration... Tony, I take it that you're part of this dialogue. For heaven's sake, let's make it a trial, okay? I'm interested in the...…

…used by a person who is, um, endowed with the mimetic power. Anyway, um, we want to, uh, You get really a number of discs, Tony, out of this book and put it, as it were, make it available, as it were, on disc. And after all, there are the texts,…

…information environment of software, is made of our own nervous systems. And it creates a new type of environment. So we pause, Tony? No, I was ahead of Harry to go outside. The amazing thing about the electronic... man or the TV generation knows that…

…function, sure. Survival function. Without a... yeah. Let me stop just... So here it is. This is McLuhan two years later in Tony Schwartz's studio again. The date is June 20th, 68. Okay. So a whole batch of their spatial orientations, their horror of maps…

Hello? Marshall? Yes, Tony. Hi. You've got your tender to be a little... Yes, yes. Well, Tony, this thing is part of... What Bellamy, in looking backward, was describing was something that happened not in the year 2000, but in the year 1820, when Owen, a…

Hello? Marshall? Yes, Tony. Hi. You've got your tender to be a little... Yes, yes. Well, Tony, this thing is part of... What Bellamy, in looking backward, was describing was something that happened not in the year 2000, but in the year 1820, when Owen, a…

…space, is, insofar as it is a sphere, simultaneous. Its components are simultaneous. This is peculiar, I think, to auditory space, Tony, that its components have to be simultaneous. They can't be sequential. If you make, that is, each cell creates uh you…

…and then we'll go hunt for it. Yeah. You see, things of that nature, and it can be very exciting. Oh, yeah, I think so. Tony, I still owe you for a tape recorder, and what has happened to my stereophonic gramophone? I'll put the order in for that, if…

…interesting? He's very, very much interested in you. Well... Um, well, I'd hate to let him down. Well, all right, I'll tell him. Tony, you're home a good deal. Yes, yes. Well, no damn reason why we shouldn't have a little chat at your place once in…

…history, would happen to him 12 days later. They went in looking for a tumor, and it was benign, so he was lucky. Things that Tony has done. Let's try the first one. I just pushed that. Was that audible all over the room in the back? Yeah. You can…

…we talk about that one a little bit in terms of response? Yeah. I don't know. Why did I? I did it because I've seen Tony do it. He did it, I think the reason is concentration. Maybe this room doesn't get dark enough. If you push one sense down, the…

…Let me play. Is this ready to go just by pushing the button here? These are a number of selections of things that Tony has done, most of them involving the human voice. Let's see. Voice. Now, just descriptively before we talk about it, that's from like…

…optical film, and the cost would have been over $20,000. So just in terms of the kind of thing that the media, this, Tony says, in terms of actual stuff used, tape and things like that, is about $2 worth. We call it time-lapse Nancy. And time-lapse…

…ads and the public was just not interested. Let's see. Also, and this is a very interesting way in which sound can be used. Tony, with his own children now, has He lives in the most plugged-in and taping house in the world. I mean, there's more outlets…

…using a revolving projector, which will show contemporary New York, backed up by two tape recorders, which will use, first of all, Tony Schwartz's New York 19, which is largely concerned with children's games on the streets of New York, and also uh 16th…

…apparently May 18, 1966. The first part is a speech. It's Atlantic City, New Jersey, May 18, 1966. And then some Tony segments. Okay, let's start. Like all great revolutions, the revolution in communication has its profit. And he is Professor Herbert…

…with Bosco. Delicious. Get some Bosco for Johnny's milk. It's delicious. So that was the second recording of McClellan Excerpts with Tony Swartz's signature recordings that he was known for. Daily life stuff. Okay, so this one is a discussion with a student…

…Swartz's signature recordings that he was known for. Daily life stuff. Okay, so this one is a discussion with a student on the Tony Swartz radio program, January 16, 1968, WNYC in New York City. Good morning. The other day I was discussing with my class…

…things that happened last night after we gave a talk on these kinds of things at the Museum of Modern Art last night, and Tony was there and did his concert that you've just had. I learned several things last night, just more or less. We've got hearing…

…differences among media. the differences among our own sensations and our own physical powers. Well, before I wanted to make an allusion to Tony, I'm very grateful to him for a story he told me about New York 19. He said there was a policeman down here…

…told me about New York 19. He said there was a policeman down here who said to me one day, if you're ever in trouble, Tony, don't shout help, shout fire. Now, I realized at once that this was a godsend in the matter of explaining the hot and the…

…the Holy Grove, the sacred ritual place, Sacrobosco. The Sacrobosco themes us in very nicely for our occasion here. But another thing that Tony brought up last night that ties in with the movies, and he didn't bring it up today. He asked last night the…

…developments, and the future topography of our man-made environments will be Marshall McLuhan. A word about his collaborator this evening, Tony Schwarz. Tony Schwartz has been doing in the field of sound what Marshall McLuhan has been theorizing about in all…

…Schwarz. Tony Schwartz has been doing in the field of sound what Marshall McLuhan has been theorizing about in all the media. Tony has said many times that McLuhan has given him his own practice and experiment with sound recording a theoretical support, a…

…Tony Schwartz that he was the first to raise sound recording into the realm of the arts. And as the practicing artist like Tony and the various media who find in Marshall McLuhan a goad, an excitement, a stimulus, and, they hope, a confirmation. This is…

…is the felicitous merger here, I would say, tonight, then, of the theorist-credit McLuhan and the artist-practitioner Swatch, wherein Tony is beginning concretely and dramatically to corroborate some of Marshall's insights, to confirm in sound and film the…

…touches and trades in. From the TV and radio commercials, he's done some 900 of them, to the adventure in art form that Tony is composing now in what he calls a sonomontage, a presentation in sound of some of the highlights of Steichen's famous album,…

…below. Fur away. That's interesting. What's it sound like? But look. Do you want to try an interview on that? I'm trying to think, Tony, for my benefit, on June 27, of some way of illustrating the effect of sound on pictures. In the section on movie, I…

…everything is related to the days before electricity, electric life. The whole time question you speak of. That's a good point, Tony. But it's not any longer necessary to set the gears according to daytime, but time can be programmed according to electric…

…according to electric light. My wife used to be especially vehement about this when we were both working for General Electric, Tony, and she was in a research and development sector And she used to say to the management there, look, General Electric…

…of a secret storage room where they had these color photographs used to pictorialize the books now in the process of being made. Tony, the colors screamed at you, and the lines leaped out at you, didn't they? One after another. Here, by the way, this…

…this sensory perception. Inter-sensory. They don't want this interplay. They like to keep everything in separate categories. Oh, Marshall, tell Tony, which I thought was very interesting, about Norm Ross's conception of the new city. Oh, this is rich. Time is…

…Time is cooperating with a group of builders who are setting up experimental cities. For the first time in history, literally, Tony, experiment cities. That is, cities, they're being planned the way a space capsule is planned as a total human environment.…

…an old cliche of space and time in favor of a new sort of tribal archetype. That's... Might be a good place to pause, Tony, to rally our resources here. Okay? One way of tackling the theme of cliché archetype would be just with such familiar titles as…

…of what we're doing. Okay, so that was Marshall McLuhan in 1966 when he first got together with Tony Schwartz in May 1966, and we heard him talking about rock music, one of the first subjects that I guess Tony was interested in McLuhan commenting on.

…activity of consciousness. Consciousness isn't a content. It's an activity. It's a process. So that was Marshall McLuhan, 1966-67, in Tony Schwartz's studio in New York City. Excellent insights into the pattern of art and games and espionage and crime capital…

…expect, and this is why I think the fusion of your two brands of expertise is very important here. Well, also, you see, what Tony is reminding us of is that we are not aware of what business we're in. That's right. But that's very helpful because it…

…they can get hold of it. In other words, I'm not afraid of plagiarism at all, any more than anybody's going to plagiarize you, Tony. I heard you say the other day to a group, it's not that I'm any more talented. It's not so. You are enormously more…

…teaching problems, whereas the good marks are just the icing on the cake that they praise themselves with. Well, we'll work on this, Tony. You know, a funny story. This is a good story. My cousin's son is the valedictorian of this high school out in…