…experience with dissociating without drugs. Right. Yeah. I mean, I've spent so much time reading about these early ketamine addicts like John Lilly and Marshall Moore. Oh, yeah. The dolphin guy. The dolphin guy. Yeah. And for him, it was like. he could…

…are not careful. I remember years ago when I was making the ketamine episode, I was interviewing somebody who was friends with John Lilly, and they were talking about how tragic the trajectory of John Lilly's life was, how terrible it was that he was…

…the world with his research, and he became a ketamine-addicted wingnut. who died an addict and the squandered potential in John Lilly. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because I've never really considered John Lilly a tragic figure. It's…

…addict and the squandered potential in John Lilly. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because I've never really considered John Lilly a tragic figure. It's true, if the point of life is to accumulate the most degrees, publish in the highest…

…I think, because... I think the point of life is to explore and to do what is interesting. And by all accounts, John Lilly was a fulfilled and happy person, someone who did not live anything approaching a conventional life. So this story, I think, has…