…to talk about trepanation. Yes. Right in 66, I suppose, We were here talking about trepanation early with my father. And so Joe went to get the encyclopedia, which was 2009. No, it's too complicated a story. I'll leave that for that, but it's quite…

…to do. Do you know what I mean? No one wants to do that. So that was love, you could say. But on the other hand, Joe, we were a threesome for years, a long period of years. And Joe, when we went to Holland, Bart was thrown out of England. A little…

…So that was love, you could say. But on the other hand, Joe, we were a threesome for years, a long period of years. And Joe, when we went to Holland, Bart was thrown out of England. A little man came at midnight, tapping on the door, like a fairy…

…was thrown out. Um... And then everything became a lot more difficult. But, sorry, I don't know where... Oh, yes, so anyway, Joe was going to Trapan himself. Joe, in the psychological thing, Joe's the younger brother. He is the younger brother. He's got…

…everything became a lot more difficult. But, sorry, I don't know where... Oh, yes, so anyway, Joe was going to Trapan himself. Joe, in the psychological thing, Joe's the younger brother. He is the younger brother. He's got an older brother. And so, Bart…

…the younger brother. He's got an older brother. And so, Bart kind of... Anyway, see, then he... has several attempts at trepanning himself. Joe was a boxer at Oxford School. He was the captain of the boxing. And he's quite small. So he was small and…

…story and was very interested. And he's a brave person, which I'm not. And so he did it, but he did it incredibly badly, as Joe did. I mean, I can't remember which occasion. So then I went to Holland. He did it badly? Yes, five times, I think. Oh,…

…one of those, but I don't want, this is really off the story, you know what I mean? But anyway, when I got home, Joe was trying to Trapan himself. And Bartlett said, oh, why don't you use a self-Trapan? Because it's only good for the people in Africa.…

…or they can go and buy a Trapan, and everyone in Africa can get Trapan. That was his kind of thinking thrown out to poor Joe. And so Joe had loyally gone and got, he had no money either, so I mean it's the cheapest machine, you know, whatever, hand…

…and buy a Trapan, and everyone in Africa can get Trapan. That was his kind of thinking thrown out to poor Joe. And so Joe had loyally gone and got, he had no money either, so I mean it's the cheapest machine, you know, whatever, hand Trapan. And so…

…had loyally gone and got, he had no money either, so I mean it's the cheapest machine, you know, whatever, hand Trapan. And so Joe was trying to do that, but he said it was like trying to uncork a bottle from the inside. The whole thing, because you…

…and then Bart couldn't get in. Yeah, that was his first rejection. I mean... Oh, yes, and then I got in and went, and Joe was trepanning himself, and couldn't get the... the thing to grip with the hand, and so he said, would I do it? So then,…

…that were following his in his footsteps or or did he it was so confident that it was that much I mean, like you said to Joe, I remember we were going off in train to Amsterdam when we were being thrown out and leaving Joey to stay in my flat to…

…kind of thing. I think it's just kind of part and parcel of leadership. So anyway, so then I decided to do it myself. And Joe said, oh, he'd do it. I thought, thanks a bunch. I think I can do it better than your five attempts. I'm a sculptor. I've…

…park and deciding how do you solve the crisis of the ego. You know, that was our game. And so I always lived. Well, with Joe and with Bart, and it was a very small but enough to keep the party going. And it was an exciting, creative party. But in…

…a pretty traumatic thing that happened, to be kicked out of the country. It was, it was. It was actually him and Joe could work really well together and, you know, building up, you know, hopefully having influence on science and getting scientific research…